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My Blog
Wednesday, 21 September 2011
Learning in person versus learning over Skype

 

I think it's better to learn in person Korean conversation than learning over Skype? Why? Because communication is better when you can actually see the person you are talking to. Some people do not use a webcam when they use Skype (either they don't have one or they just do not like to use one). So you can miss out on a lot of visual cues. Also, the interaction is more natural in person. You can see the person even when they get up and move around. You can write things to each other on paper. You can pick up objects and talk about them. You can move around the room, look at books, watch TV and even look at the Internet together. So I think learning in person is much better than doing it on Skype.


Posted by honeybearsmom at 6:57 PM EDT
Updated: Wednesday, 21 September 2011 7:03 PM EDT
Language exchange

I don't think language exchange works out for me in Korea. The people I was doing language exchange were much better English speakers than I was a Korean speaker. You have to be at the same level for it to work out. These people weren't that motivated either. I remember saying countless times for them to speak in Korean. They would speak in Korean for a few minutes, forget and switch to English. As a consequence it was 95% English and 5% Korean. None of these people I really found that interesting to talk to so I didn't keep it up with them. Partly, it's because their English was better than mine, partly their motivation to learn English conversation wasn't that high, and partly it was because they didn't understand the concept of language exchange.

I think it's also because they are a bit lazy. They expected me to talk to them in English and listen to their boring conversation in English but they weren't willing to make the same sort of sacrifices on my behalf. I also remember that I was the one initiating topics to talk about. They didn't really try and start a subject. So it fell on my shoulders to find some interesting topic  - one that I thought would be interesting for me and for them. 

So in the end it wasn't worth it for me. In fact I wish I hadn't done it. I was really enthused about it at the start and then was really disappointed by the outcome. 

I don't think I will do this again for a long time. In fact I don't think I should start with the Turkish guy. I spent more time speaking in English than he did speaking in Korean. 

I will only attempt this again perhaps when my Korean is much improved. And then I won't really need language partners. I can just communicate with people around me in Korean. 

I might try some sites on free websites for language exchange for fun but I don't really like communicating with people I don't know online.

I think I really wanted to talk to the guy in the kebab shop about how he learned the language and how long it took him to learn it and that's why I went there. Actually he didn't tell me very much. He said it took him one year and he learned Korean by working as a small business owner. That was about it. He didn't go into much more detail than this. He didn't give me any helpful tips. He said he didn't have many Korean friends but I don't really believe him. He might have had a Korean girlfriend in the past but doesn't want to talk about it so doesn't mention that he learned Korean from her. I am just speculating of course and it might be that he learned 100% on the job running the business. He might have learned Korean by watching his colleagues speak with Koreans but he didn't specifically state this. His replies to how he learned Korean weren't clear. It's still a mystery how he came to be fluent. I know that it can be done under the right circumstances though. One year still though is pretty quick. 

 


Posted by honeybearsmom at 10:49 AM EDT
More on self-study

I don't really need a Korean person to teach me Korean except for speaking immersion practice because it's easier to learn by myself. Obviously I can't teach myself Korean conversation and watching movies isn't as good as interacting with a live Korean person as nobody in the movie is interacting with me directly. But I wouldn't really call this person a "teacher" as such. It's just someone who can speak Korean speaking in Korean to me - simply at first and slowly. I can learn from taxi drivers if I drove around in taxis all day. The taxi drivers wouldn't know I am learning Korean conversation from them. They would just think I am a passenger trying to converse with them.

And even some of the taxi drivers are not that useful. If they know English words but not be able to string them together in a sentence, it's not that helpful listening to them because they will use English words. For example, they will say "promise" meaning they have an appointment to meet someone, and I will say "yasok? appointment?" and they will say yes, "appointment".  Instead of saying "yasok" they will say "appointment" because they know the word for appointment. So even those with very poor English aren't as useful to learn from as those with hardly ANY English at all. 

So I REALLY need someone with almost virtually zero English skills because it's too tempting for them to use the English words they know instead of the Korean words when communicating with a foreigner. Then I will be teaching THEM a foreign language instead of the other way around. If they understand a bit of English it's OK so long as they don't USE English. So long as they don't SPEAK English, I mean.

I really need 100% Korean immersion practice. That's how I learned English fast as a kid. No one in school spoke a word of Korean. My sisters started to speak in English at home when I was still clinging to Korean but they didn't actually formally TEACH me English. I just absorbed the English I heard from them at home. 

I think it's possible for ANYONE to learn to speak a foreign language fluently this way -- if they receive enough immersion. Just people talking to them in the target language and NEVER lapsing into the foreigner's language like they do all the time in Korea. Because English is a universal language I suppose it's expected that most people in Korea know some English even if it's just some single words (and can't speak sentences). It's the nature of the beast. If I could not speak English well, my Korean would probably be better than it is now, even without making an effort to learn Korean. That's why the Turkish guy had an edge in learning Korean - his English wasn't that great. But it might pose a difficulty when it comes to learning reading though. How many Turkish language books are there for teaching Korean? How many Korean books have Turkish translations? Compared to those that have English translations? 

So to repeat, I really do not need a 'teacher' as such. I need lots of interactions with Korean speakers who are going to speak KOREAN with me (and not lapse into English even if it's single words they are using). The rest I can learn myself. I can study all the books and learn reading comprehension myself. I can read translations of Korean by myself. Occasionally I might need a teacher to explain a point or two in grammar I don't understand myself but that's about it. 

I think teachers can get in the way actually. They can stress you out and stress is bad for learning a foreign language. I know I don't like to be corrected. And some people who teach you think it's their job to correct you all the time. They correct you so much that you can't get past one word for like five minutes. They insist you say the word/phrase perfectly correctly before they allow you to move on. I don't mind if a teacher repeats words just for the sake of repetition as repetition is good but I don't like it when a teacher repeats a word because they think you aren't pronouncing it well enough for them. Geeze, what do they expect? They are haranguing you and they even get upset with you - their voice rises in irritation with you. You do not know what you are doing wrong and yet they keep telling you that your pronunciation/intonation is off.  They are just a LITTLE BIT  too anal I think. And they speak to you in English all this time so you are hearing mostly English and not Korean. 

These people aren't good teachers at all. In fact they might have personal problems and are taking their frustrations out on you. You shouldn't take that kind of treatment. I mean, who has perfect pronunciation, intonation and rhythm from the get-go? 

I think so long as we are able to communicate that's enough. We can move on at that stage. We shouldn't stay stuck on the one phrase just because my pronunciation, intonation or rhythm isn't perfect ....  The person who was teaching me like this actually had a strong Korean accent coming through when speaking English to me at times so what a hypocrite! And he made some mistakes in English like dropping articles though he had been living in western countries since he was a teenager, for the past 30 years actually. So it seems like he was expecting perfection when he wasn't perfect himself. LOL!!! 

I don't think I could last long with someone like that. Actually, he wasn't my teacher really. He was my relative and he was just testing me out. I showed him my Korean level and he got kind of angry with me because my intonation (stress on individual syllables) wasn't good enough for him. If I had to pay someone to teach me, I wouldn't accept this treatment and would get rid of this person if they started behaving like that. 

In other words, I am not a passive learner. I instruct the conversation teacher on how they should teach me. If they ignore my instructions and start to teach me in a different way then I will get rid of them.  I do not leave the teaching method up to them.

This is why paying someone is very important. It puts you in a position of control. They know this or should know this and will follow your instructions if they want to keep the job. If you don't pay them even if it's like bartering - doing language exchange so in a sense you ARE paying them by giving them English conversation practise in exchange  - it doesn't work half as well. The person is not obligated to obey your instructions.  The only thing you can do is just drop them. Because it becomes an unequal exchange situation. There is no point threatening them or warning them. They aren't your employees or your hirees. If they don't get it, then it's not worth keeping up with them. They obviously don't understand the basis for language exchange. Even if you remind them, they will forget and will just do what they did before. Obviously they are bad at reciprocating. And you shouldn't make allowances for them and continue because you build up resentment inside yourself. And this will eventually come out which will make you feel bad. So it's best just to discontinue the exercise. Unless that person is very entertaining and likeable and you want to keep them as a friend. If a person is that stupid or forgetful they can't remember to dumb down the level for you or don't pick up that you are a beginner then it's not worth keeping up with these people. They lose out eventually but don't realize that this will happen in which case it's not really beneficial to continue the relationship with these people.

And I don't want to talk for hours with a boring Korean person. I am lonely but I still don't want to talk with someone who doesn't interest me for very long. I have better things to do with my time. In fact that's why I gave up on the last person. She was trying to squeeze out as much English practice from me as possible. She spent the exact time speaking in Korean as planned which was half an hour but when it came to speaking in English, I ended up speaking to her for an hour, an hour and a half, I can't remember exactly. She never paused and said, "I think we need to switch to Korean as it's not fair for you." She was perfectly aware that I was spending a lot more time speaking in English to her and she liked it. I only stopped when I realized that I could have spent the past hour or half an hour doing something more productive with my time. It felt too much like 'work' for which I wasn't being paid for for my liking. I realized she was sneaky kind of controlling the situation by not picking up the phone or answering my text messages when it didn't suit her, and then by letting the English part go much overtime without feeling much guilt about it, and expecting me to just let it slide. I pretended to let it slide and I didn't say anything about it to her but I thought to myself, wow, that was an unequal language exchange! She didn't really make an effort to dumb it down for me either. I think I reminded her several times to dumb it down. She didn't take the hint and I got nothing really out of the Korean speaking part. I think I decided then that it wasn't really worth continuing with her. I don't like it when someone doesn't pick up the phone even though they are at home - it was in the morning on the weekend - just because they don't agree with the message. I felt like I was wasting my time. I didn't say so directly to her all of this. In fact I gave the impression that nothing was wrong and I said that in the future I can't keep to a schedule (which was true) and that we can just try contacting each other on Skype when we can see the other person is available and we have time to do language exchange. That way things can be more flexible and we might fit in more language exchange. I thought she wouldn't like this and she didn't. She never contacted me since.

I am OK with that. I didn't really like her sneaky attitude and her not giving as much as she was taking. I am not that assertive a person and I am easygoing. If I don't like someone's behavior but I am not their employer or something, I am not going to take them to task or even criticize them. I just kind of dissociate myself from them. Besides I reminded her gently and obliquely many times that she needed to dumb it down for me and she refused to do so. Whether it's because she is a really hopeless teacher (which is hard to believe as she was an English teacher for children) and did not know how to dumb it down or just didn't care enough to try and talked Korean at a level that was comfortable for her but was really hard for me to follow,  wasn't important. I don't think I could continue with her. She would get satisfaction with each session and I would get none. She wasn't that communicative either and ignored a Skype text message to her that I had written earlier. I needed someone a bit less cool and more friendly than her.  


Posted by honeybearsmom at 9:28 AM EDT
Reading Korean
Mood:  sad

When I read Hangeul, I don't recognize the whole word yet. I have to read it out phonetically still. I haven't reached the stage where I can pick up whole words with the one glance. Maybe I haven't read enough to do this. I shy away from reading Hangeul. My eye gets drawn to Latin characters and away from Hangeul. I do not like reading Hangeul. When I do, I force myself. I do it with a frown on my face as if facing an unpleasant chore. I do not read units of characters very well. For example, I still get ã…ˆ and ㄱ mixed up. A word like ì „ì̀ ê±° (bicycle I think) confuses me when reading it. I have to read it very slowly. Oops I got it wrong - it's ì̀ ì „ê±°. This proves my point - I still can't say the Korean word for bicycle properly because there are too many js and ks for my liking. Also I get mixed up with oh sound and the eu sound. I get the oh and o sound mixed up as well. I also get o and oo mixed up. I read very slowly. I think once I become faster in reading Hangeul, a breakthrough will be made. Then I can picture the word in my mind as a word written in Hangeul, not as a word that has been translated into Romanization and which appears like that in my mind's eye.

I just need to get faster reading Hangeul, I guess.  I can do that by reading lots.

At the moment, I don't recognize many whole words on sight. If they show a Hangeul sentence on TV, I am reading the first couple of words by the time they take it off the screen. This is how slow I am in reading Hangeul. I am getting better though. I read signs in the subway system and other public places now kind of involuntarily and the Hangeul doesn't turn me off too much. I think because these signs only have a short phrase. Paragraphs of Hangeul turn me off. Also certain types of font turn me off. I don't like Hangeul that is written in small size. Hangeul is definitely harder than Latin characters to read because the characters are squashed together in a smaller space and you have to read in all directions - horizontally then vertically - it varies with each word. In English you just read horizontally. Probably Koreans do not read like Hangeul like that. Their brains probably take in the unit of characters at a glance. But for someone like me beginning to read Hangeul, my brain doesn't do that. I do prefer Latin characters. I think they are easier for the human brain to process. Hangeul might utilize space better but it still adds a degree of difficulty to reading. Hangeul is just not as clear as Latin characters. If you see a sign in Korean above a sign in English, you will know what I mean. The eye is naturally drawn to the English sign as it looks clean and easy to decipher. The eye is repelled by the Hangeul. Far away they look a bit like Chinese characters. I do not like the modern Romanization either. I used to think it was better than the older style but I no longer think so. The new Romanization takes more letters to write. Also the use of two characters to write a sound is not good. It's better to have a character per sound as they used to. Even if they just add diacritical marks to a character. Because this way it's easier to read. 

Or if they don't want to add diacritical marks, they can make up a new character to represent the phonetic sound. For example, they can write and inverted v for the "eo" sound etc. The brain pauses when it sees eo. Is it a diphthong or is it a single phonetic sound? 

I was embarrassed by the Turkish guy who could speak Korean so well. He has been in Korea for less time than I have but he's fluent in Korean whereas I am not. But I can't feel too down on myself. We had different circumstances. I think if I had been thrust into the same circumstances that he faced, I would be a fluent Korean speaker now. I am not THAT bad with languages. I know I am more of a book learner than someone who picks up language by mixing with native speakers but still ...... 

I DID pick up English fairly quickly (and forgot my Korean just as quickly). I remember in kindergarten understanding a lot of what my teacher said and what the other kids said and that was only after a year or a year and a half of being in Australia. 

I picked up English reading fairly quickly as I have written about before. I struggled reading the Little Golden books when I was in kindergarten but soon after mastering one book, I was reading these kinds of children's books by myself, using a dictionary for words I didn't know. Nobody in my family taught me to read except for one time my sister tried to teach me to read Cinderella. I had to teach myself. It was hard at first but I was driven to read because I wanted to catch up with my older sisters.  I didn't understand a lot of the dictionary obviously of course but it somehow helped. I even started to read the dictionary from A to Z like a book. I started writing my own stories a couple of years later. I remember doing this in 2nd and 3rd grade. I think my speaking was OK too though I was really shy back then and didn't mix with many people. Then I started to study grammar and spelling and vocabulary on my own. Then I started reading classics like Jane Eyre on my own in elementary school. I even read Charles Dickens which I didn't like. If I hadn't taught myself English I wouldn't be able to spell properly or write sentences grammatically well. The Australian education system is very bad and I see it in the writing of many Australians. I was never taught grammar and spelling in school. It wasn't fashionable to teach those things back then. I think things are a bit better but not by much. Those who are good at writing are usually people who did their own self-study or went to good private schools. 

 


Posted by honeybearsmom at 8:50 AM EDT
The perfect language learning system

I wish I could study Korean full-time. I know that I can achieve my goal of being fluent in speaking and writing Korean if I could study Korean full time. Unfortunately, I can't but I am just going to fantasize about doing that. I would spend all my WAKING HOURS learning Korean. When I am really into something, I go overboard. I can really spend 14 hours studying Korean if I had the chance. It would not be boring. I would mix different activities around. I would memorize vocabulary - at a cafe (I find studying at a cafe fun as there are other people around so you don't feel so bored and lonely). Then I would have the conversation teacher speak to me in Korean for an hour. I don't think learning from a conversation teacher for more than an hour is productive. It stresses the Korean teacher out too much because I can imagine they run out of things to talk about if they have to talk for more than an hour. I think I would persuade the teacher to do fun activities with me like teach me how to make kimchi, watch dramas together and discuss them and so on. These activities would give us a focal point around which we could base our conversation.

Then I would do some easy reading. I would read manwhas and just try to understand them myself looking at the English translations to check my understanding or if the reading is too hard. Perhaps I could read the manwhas with the Korean teacher and the Korean teacher could try and explain the parts I don't understand in Korean simple language. 

I would also study from the grammar book. I would listen to the mp3 files. I would watch some dramas and watch them twice, first without English subtitles then with, or the other way around. I would watch a bit of KBS World but only when they had interesting programs on. I like the real life programs where they show the lives of common people. Some of the stories are really touching. 

I would just immerse myself in Korean. I would have the TV on all day. I would take out interesting manwha from the manwha borrowing store. I would also take out interesting dvds and watch with the English subtitles and then with the Korean subtitles. 

I would also chat online with Korean friends using English but occasionally using Korean words. 

I would try and read some websites about my favorite ë°°ìš°s and struggle with that. I would try and read some news in Korean too (but would probably soon give up). 

I then would try even triangulation (in French) for fun. I would have forgotten a lot of French of course, not that I ever reached the advanced stage anyway (I took 3 units instead of 4 units of French in school so there was no need to really study to the advanced level). 

I think if I did this for 6 months every day, I would have spent 14 hours (8 hours for sleeping and 2 hours for eating, getting dressed, cleaning the house and shopping) every day for 130 days. This equals 1620 hours if the arithmetic I did in my head is correct. I think 1620 hours is enough to be fluent in speaking and writing. I think I could pass the test they have for foreigners learning Korean. I could cope in university where courses are taught in Korean (just). I will have to learn about 10,000 words of vocabulary at least. If I study about 60 words every day, that will be 7800 words in 6 months -- actually that's not enough - I will have to learn ?80 words a day -- that's about 10,000 words in six months. I would have to read A LOT to pick up that volume of vocabulary. I would be reading newspapers and nonfiction books and constantly looking up the dictionary. I would be searching for difficult material all the time. I would read classics because they contain a lot of difficult advanced vocabulary. I would pick up many technical terms and jargon in a wide variety of subjects. 

So if I just go full-blast I think the goal can be achieved. It would be a lot of study but I could do different things so that it doesn't become boring. Say after ramming vocabulary into my brain I would do some fun reading or drama-watching. After studying grammar and doing the exercises I would do some listening practice. 

So I think this would be my perfect language learning system IF I had the time. 

 


Posted by honeybearsmom at 8:29 AM EDT
My goals

I really want to be fluent in speaking so that people say I am almost native-like in my ability and I want to be good at reading Korean so I can read things on the net without any difficulty. I also want to be good at writing so I can chat with people on the Internet in ban mal and also write a reasonable formal email without too many grammatical and spelling mistakes and also at the same time sounding natural.

I want people to say I am a good speaker and feel comfortable conversing with me in Korean. 

I want to understand what they say 100% on TV. I want to watch dramas and understand what they say 100%. This includes historical dramas (the language is a bit more difficult to understand because they use old-fashioned Korean). 

I want to feel I have no trouble switching between Korean and English. 

I don't think you need to be a genius to do this. You just need to be exposed to the right environment like the Turkish guy was, and also do a lot of self-study - for the reading comprehension and writing. 

I feel like there is a LONG way to go ........... 

I have made progress - I understand basic grammar. And I know very basic vocabulary. I can speak using a mixture of English and Korean to make myself understood. I can read very easy to understand children's books. I think I would be in grade one stage to be honest. So I have about six more grades to go. (I say six and not twelve because when I reached sixth grade in school, I learned about 99.99% of the English I needed to learn to perform well scholastically, that is, be able to write essays well and so on. I learned about 99% of the vocabulary I used in essay writing by that stage.  After sixth grade, I really did not study English by myself as avidly as I had before that point. My vocabulary did not really increase by much). I did not find attending school useful at all. If I had not attended school and just studied by myself I would have progressed far more quickly than I did. I found school really boring to be honest. Schooling was in fact harmful because it held me back and prevented me from going at my own pace and made me stressed out because of the boredom. And I did not socialize well in school which made me very stressed out even more. (I got picked on by other kids and sometimes even ostracized. It's awful to have hardly any friends and to feel no connection to the friends you have. You are better off at home or just having a tutor or being homeschooled.) So I got nothing out of going to school except experiencing lots of stress and feeling bad about myself. It made me a really insecure person and very shy around people. I lacked a lot of confidence because of the bad experiences in school. You can say I was scarred by the experience (and I carry the scars to this day although time and maturity have healed a lot of the scars). I was really lonely even when I was among friends. I felt I didn't belong and felt like an alien most of the time.

Anyway I digress a lot but wanted to point out that self-study is more valuable at least in my personal case. 

I might attend language school for the social interaction with others and to increase my network of friends but I don't know whether the time spent attending classes and paying the tuition fee is worth that. 

I will probably be bored in class. I don't like listening. I am better at reading and trying to understand than listening to a teacher explain something to me. Some of the stuff I would probably know anyway and so it would be boring. I don't like going at a pace that doesn't suit me. I don't like this one-size-fits-all approach as a matter of fact. 

I think I will use immersion side by side with self-learning to try and see whether my learning speeds up or not. I can really do immersion at any time but I want to try it now. If it helps me speed up my reading comprehension and my understanding of grammar then it will be useful to do at this (early) stage. 

So I have to get the immersion done. I wonder what kind of response I will get when I put the ad up in the apartment complex. I hope I don't get a lot of curious people who aren't really committed. I need someone who really wants the money. Then they will be committed and driven to give me what they want and not just what will make them feel comfortable. It's essentially a job, not a hobby or a chance to interact with a foreigner. 

Koreans are strange like that. They want to interact with foreigners but once they do that and find that foreigners are just human with problems like everyone else, Koreans just drop them fast and lose all interest. 

Foreigners are not like movie stars on television. They are not a fount of endless entertainment.  Foreigners are not entertainers. They are not going to talk 100% of the time amusing Koreans. Koreans need to give and take. If Koreans are not willing to share of themselves in conversation, lose their reserve, and make an effort to be entertaining, why do they think foreigners will? Let's face it, Koreans are boring people to have conversations with. They live very restricted boring lives. I know this because I taught in an English cafe for a year and got to meet many average Koreans. They are boring, boring, boring. And not's the lack of English ability even. In fact, I find blue-collar people MUCH more interesting. I really got bored talking to Koreans. I know that many people say if you are bored you must be a boring person yourself, but I felt kind of restricted to what I could say. I didn't want to shock these people. I didn't want to say what I really thought. Because these people aren't used to this kind of talk. They want the conventional. Teachers get really bored and usually leave after a certain length of time. Few teachers teach at the one place for an extended length of time. 

So if Koreans expect foreigners to provide all the entertainment while they sit back passively and just take it all in then they are really expecting a lot. And Koreans are very passive in communication in general. 

If they do open up, they generally whinge about their jobs, how they are not appreciated and expected to work long hours and so on.  And how they are not given the remuneration they think they deserve. I really do not like this complaint about the low salary. The companies they work for have to make a profit and if they paid the salary that everyone thinks they deserve to get they would go broke. If the person knew ahead of time before they signed up to work there that they were going to be 'underpaid' why did they agree to go to work there? Obviously, they are so talented that many companies are lining up to offer these stars work [sarcasm]. How generous of these people to agree to work at the companies they do. 

And often when I find out what these people are paid, I am surprised at how much they earn. But still they complain. They earn enough to live well, afford an apartment if they save and have a good retirement but it's not enough for them. Their wives don't have to work but still they don't get enough money. Notice these people never start their own businesses and put their own money on the line. If they did, I bet they would try and pay their employees the least amount of money that they could .... 

What do they expect? They are average joes and janes and there are millions of people like them. They did not attend SKY and so knew that that's all they can expect. They are lucky they have a job at a company. Yes, it's horrible to be a slave and I would not like to work 12 hours a day but I wouldn't complain about the SALARY, I would complain about the long hours at work. In fact, I would give UP salary to cut down on the number of hours at work ........

In fact if these people did not work at a company they would have no social lives. They only have friends and people to eat lunch with because they work at a company. You can be the most boring person on earth but because you work at a company and Koreans are group-oriented people you will be included in social activities at work and you will automatically belong. These company workers go on holidays together, socialize as a group after work and often marry one another. So these companies are good for many people. 

So there are disadvantages and advantages about spending so much time at work. 

I shouldn't bitch about these people because I know I would HATE it if I had to spend so much time at a company. I am more of a loner and I hate committing myself to the one company. I like to work for myself and would RESENT the time that I was robbed of by working for a company like a slave even though there would be more opportunities to socialize there than if I was working alone. 

So there are good and bad and it depends on one's personality. 

I should really be grateful that there are so many opportunities for me. I will try and take advantage of this time I have and try and be MORE productive than I have been. To be honest, I have been very UNPRODUCTIVE. I know the reason why. I will try and get a flatmate even if it's a homestay kid because I realize I lose track of time when I live alone and neglect my responsibilities to myself and others when I live alone. I don't have many friends in Korea so living alone is even MORE harmful in that case. 

Korea is not a friendly society where people are always dropping by or inviting you for dinner at your home so I think that I will have to find more friendly and outgoing people or just try to socialize more. 

 

 


Posted by honeybearsmom at 5:09 AM EDT
Updated: Wednesday, 21 September 2011 7:02 PM EDT
Self-study versus learning in hagwons

In my view doing self-study is much more useful than attending hagwons. Unless the hagwon has IMMERSION classes where the teachers speak Korean 100% of the time because they can't speak English, going to hagwons is a waste of time. It might help SOME people - those who are unmotivated to learn and attending an institution is the only way they will sit down and try and learn a language, but for those people who are motivated to learn a new language, it's simply counterproductive to attend a hagwon.

It's mainly the opportunity cost. The time and money one spends in a hagwon could be more usefully spent on studying by oneself and buying materials that one chooses oneself. 

That is my experience and it's also something I've noticed about other language-learners. The ones who are really good at English, almost like native speakers, have invariably spent the time STUDYING by themselves.  Consistently, when I have asked the really good English speakers how they learned English, they have said they taught themselves. Most of these people have never spent time in an English-speaking nation. These people are usually quite smart. One of them studied law at Seoul National University and the other is a medical doctor. They speak English better than a lot of people who have studied English OVERSEAS.

Obviously these people availed themselves of the abundant self-study materials available to the English learners in this country and chose an efficient and EFFECTIVE method of study. None of them attended a hagwon to learn English. 

I think they are really smart if they taught themselves to be fluent without even spending one day in an English-speaking country. You can create an immersion atmosphere in Korea (to learn English) because this nation is CRAZY about learning English and there are so many resources out there. 

And these people are great at writing too. They study ALL aspects of the language. There are some who have spent time overseas and are good speakers of English but aren't good at reading and are hopeless at writing. I am not talking about these people. I am talking about those who have taught themselves English and speak English fluently without much of a Korean accent and can also read and write English well. 

So I think in my case, I will try and emulate them and not waste time and money trying to learn formally by going to institutions and just teach myself. I have enough materials if I raid the English-learning sections of bookstores. There is also free material - downloads of dramas and subtitles and stuff. I can hire someone for an hour a day to talk in Korean for me to speed up the process and improve my pronunciation and intonation. 

I have to pay someone because as I have said Koreans aren't that outgoing. Contrast the Korean real estate agent whom I met and I suggested language exchange and she said she was interested but did not really make an effort to really engage me in that idea, with the Turkish guy who I befriended today. We made a time and we made a tentative agreement to meet informally after work to go out and have dinner and teach each other Korean and English. 

It's sad that I have to learn Korean from a Turkish person living in Korea and not from a Korean person even though there are millions of Koreans in Korea and there are only a handful of Turks in Korea. Korean is not even this guy's native language! 

It just shows the strange state of affairs in this country and why it's extremely hard for foreigners to learn Korean if they are not doing DDD work or engaged in small business in Korea (or not married/dating Korean people). 

I don't think this man dated a Korean person. It's possible he did in the past and that's why he learned Korean so fast, but if he did, he did not let on about that. He said he learned Korean on the job. 


Posted by honeybearsmom at 4:52 AM EDT
Immersion is good for learning speaking and helps with reading and writing

Today I went to a kebab shop in Hongdae. I had found that the people there spoke good Korean so I went there to find out more about that. There was one person there called Sharam (Sharom it is pronounced). He said he was from Turkey but his mother is from Iran. Anyway, his Korean is VERY good. He has been in Korea for four years running kebab businesses with his friend also from the Middle East. He said it took him 1 year to become a good speaker of Korean. I don't know about his reading. I don't think it's very good. He said he doesn't speak much English but he speaks enough for me to understand. He never learned Korean from an institution. He just learned on the job. He just listened to the communications that went on the shops he was working in and then went on from there. He said he really likes Korea. I think he plans on staying here forever. I didn't ask about his private life but I gather he's not married though a brochure about restaurants and notable spots in Hongdae said he was married to a Korean woman. He said that was a mistake and he had no control over what they put in that brochure.

 

 

This is not the same kebab shop I went to. This is just an image I got off the Internet. 

 

He was nice and he spent the time talking to me. He said he wants to learn English from me. He lives in Itaewon. He socializes mostly with his Turkish friends. 

I was just amazed at how confident he was with the Korean language and it was more than just being able to talk about restaurant related matters to his customers, he was able to converse in Korean on diverse subjects. 

After talking to him, I think that immersion is the way to go to be verbally fluent in the language. Not only that but it is a faster way to help one read and write. You pick up the grammar and vocabulary from immersion so when it comes to learning to read and write, a lot of what you must learn you already know or your ear knows it so you have a headstart over people who have never had immersion. 

I asked him if it's OK to do language exchange. He said he was willing to do it. He suggested I give him a ring - he gave me his card - and we might go to Itaewon in the evening and eat dinner in a restaurant. I might like that and maybe go to a hof afterwards and practise my Korean. 

I think when you have a personal teacher, you can learn the language fast. The good thing about this guy is that he can't speak English that much. We did spend a lot of time speaking in English and only a little time speaking in Korean though. 

I think I will try and get the ad translated and go from there. I will post it up tomorrow and see how it goes. I will also contact Homestay and see how it goes. Or make my own ad. I think I should be more outgoing and meet more people. I need to get a part time job. 

It's SOO hard in the English teaching industry to learn Korean.  There are many English teachers who have spent lots of time learning Korean and I don't think any of them are as good as this Turkish guy.

Koreans are just HOPELESS at teaching English. I am watching TV and they butcher the language. They are giving certificates to kindergarten on children and they write "Good focus of attention" which is wrong and "improving eating". I just wish these amateurs wouldn't try. Some people have an idea they are good at speaking English when they are not. The only ones that are reasonable are the ones who have spent some time abroad or who have studied on their own. Those who have gone to hagwons and never been abroad and never studied on their own are just hopeless. 

I really can't stand these people. They get hired over people like ME. That's why the state of English-speaking is so bad. 

I really don't like the stupid way Koreans learn to speak and write English. 

I think I can be fluent verbally in a year. With an hour everyday of immersion, I think after a year I will be quite good at it. 

The key is to speak to people who cannot speak any English. That's the key. 

I have to pay someone. Because otherwise the commitment isn't there. And I don't want to waste time. 

I definitely don't want to spend time with people who are interested in learning English from me. I find that their speaking habits are fossilized and they are kind of boring to talk to. If they haven't been able to study and learn on their own when there are so many English-learning materials for self-study in Korea, talking to a foreigner isn't really going to help I think. 

I shouldn't be down so much on these people. There was a youngish woman that I shouldn't have dropped, but she annoyed me because she was hard to contact. And she didn't really make much of an effort for me. She didn't repeat words patiently for me. She just talked what she wanted to talk about and didn't care whether I understood or not. 

Anyway, I think I shouldn't really blame others. I could have been more assertive. I DID say gently that they have to talk to me like I am a child learning to speak the language for the first time, but they forgot this, and I didn't want to be more forceful. It's not my nature. And I think this woman recognized I wasn't getting much benefit out of it. She said that maybe I wasn't really learning much during these sessions. 

I don't think she really wanted to practise that much. I wanted to spend a lot of time chatting with her but she was unavailable except for the exact time of the appointment that was planned. So I felt she wasn't flexible enough. 

I think she lost a good opportunity. She didn't have to pay anyone and was getting a solid hour of English immersion every time. You normally have to pay a lot for that. But she didn't think about her commitment and neglected that side of things so things were one-sided. It was just take and take on her part and give and give on my part. I think she was really keen to improve her English as it was vital for her career. However, she blew it as she ignored my pleas to lower the level and just chatted on as she wished. 

There aren't many people around who want to learn Korean like me here in this area so she lost a good opportunity. 

I am enthused about immersion after meeting this Turkish person. I didn't give him my number because I was shy but maybe I should have. Then I don't have to initiate contact with him. At least if I go to Hongdae I have a friend. I can always buy a kebab from his shop. The kebab was delicious. He knows I don't eat meat now. I think he liked me. He was slow to warm up to me and then when he realized I was knowledgeable about the Middle East (I had a lot of ME friends back home), he opened up a bit. 

I feel a bit relaxed. I knew there was something "wrong" with Korean people and it wasn't just me.  If I can have an hour conversation with a stranger, a Turkish guy, who isn't that friendly, how come I have never been able to do that with Korean people. It's the Confucian system. It prevents strangers from getting to know each other when they meet casually. This is why I haven't been able to pick up Korean. Koreans aren't cold, they are just not used to having casual conversations with strangers. 

Some older people are better at this than younger people -- you would think it would be the other way around. 

Anyway, I just think that Korean people isolate themselves a bit much. I know ME people are much warmer. You would never feel lonely living in a ME nation, but you could easily feel lonely living in Korea. 

Maybe it's different in the big city, I don't know. Or if I joined a church group, which I am not going to do just for the sake of belonging somewhere, as it's a hypocritical thing to do if I am not a Christian. I don't really like many of the churches here especially the evangelical churches. Anyway, I feel hypocritical going to a church if I don't believe in the religion. I know some people do that but I can't really do it even if I get many social benefits from doing so. 

I will just have to find my own social group. I think this Turkish guy is OK. I might visit him once a week and we might go out in the evening once a week or something. At least I will have made a friend. Korean people are strange. They aren't that friendly. They are too shy. I am shy as well but I make an effort and I can 'fake' it to the point where people think I am outgoing (they don't know the real me). 

I am just naturally warm I think. I think it's impolite to be cold in my opinion so even though I am shy and feeling a bit awkward when meeting people for the first time, I try and be friendly and show a happy face in public. I am not the most friendly person by any means but Korean people are just not that friendly in my opinion and that's one factor I haven't been able to pick up Korean. They seem consumed in their work even the single ones. 

And I have heard a similar thing from other people who have lived in Korea. They say they were able to pick up Chinese living in Taiwan and China in one year but in Korea they have been having trouble picking up the language even though they have been in Korea for longer. Korean people are just not open to talking with strangers. They never invite you to their home for example. 

 


Posted by honeybearsmom at 4:09 AM EDT
Updated: Wednesday, 21 September 2011 4:52 AM EDT
Tuesday, 20 September 2011
Moving beyond translations

At the moment, my reading ability is such that I cannot read by myself, that is, without an English translation.

So I am restricted in what I can read. I have to read only books that have English translations. That means reading books from the learning foreign language books section of a bookstore. I have to rely on subtitles for most dramas though I am doing OK with "Winter Bird".

So my current aim is to keep finding these books with translations and finding books that I can read without straining myself too much. So I will probably do this for a while. After my reading ability improves and my vocabulary grows,  I will reach a stage where I can start reading without translations. They will still be easy readers, probably children's stuff like fairytales and simple short stories however. But at least I will be able to understand the stories without needing a translation. I will probably need a dictionary though. 

This is the next stage of my learning - being able to read without translations. If I can read most sentences in a paragraph without reaching for a dictionary then I will have reached that stage. 

I will then rely on a dictionary as my main reading aid. That's OK. I will be still enlargening my vocabulary. Even young Koreans need to do this - increase their vocabulary. I will then be spending most of my learning time reading and looking up dictionaries - online mostly. I did this when I learned English. I hope I can reach this stage (soon). 

Then I will be learning to increase my vocabulary, not for understanding grammar. This will be very good. I will be motivated to read harder and harder stuff. I will try and build up my vocabulary. I will create word lists. I will try and become a sophisticated reader. Reading speed will be moderately fast, just pausing to look up a word I don't understand. 

I will be trying to increase my vocabulary to 10,000 words. So I will have to read a lot of different things. It will be like when I studied English. I didn't NEED to study English for ordinary functioning as a person in society, but I needed to do so to excel in English as a school subject.

So if I can do it for English, I can do the same for Korean. As I have said, I hope I keep up my Korean studying so I reach this level. It will be cool. I don't want to rely on English translations forever. 

So the key is mastering grammar and then increasing vocabulary to the point where I know at least 10,000 words.

Once I master grammar, I don't have to parse a sentence to work out what the author is trying to say. And once I have learned sufficient vocabulary, I can understand most easy readers without looking at translations.

So my goal after this stage is to move beyond English translations. 

I think though I have to read A LOT. I might have to join a library as reading from books I have bought is getting expensive and also the books are crowding my space. 

I think once I have passed the stage where I am relying on English translations, I will borrow all the material I want to read, or get it off the net. I can't afford to buy books forever for my language learning. And I have to get rid of some of the books. I will give away or sell some of the children's books with translations. 

I do get a kick out of reading though. It's still amazing to me that I can read some sentences quickly without struggling. I really must have changed. The studying must have paid off. I think my reading ability improved exponentially after I spent a few days learning basic vocab. I had never done this before - learning basic every day vocab words. The phrase books aren't really good for the beginner. You need to learn words for rock, tree, lake, sky and so on before you learn words for bank account, accident and so on. Of course you need the latter words eventually but I think kids have an advantage in learning because adults naturally teach them basic words when they are learning a language. With adults, instructors for some reason see no reason to teach them basic vocab. The  adult learner might be good at knowing words for holiday, moving house, finishing work but have no idea how to say stone, leaf, moon, snake. I feel more confident now that I have these basic words under my belt. I was floundering a bit before this.

I think the way kids learn a language is the best way. Teachers just teach them basic vocabulary words, often singly, not in a sentence. Then they learn simple two-word sentences, then three-word sentences and so on. They teach words that they can feel, see or hear - words for tangible things. Then they widen the circle of words gradually to include more complex concepts. And the teachers have a goal of teaching say 500 most commonly used words by the end of the year and so on. 

Adults first encounter the language through grammar books and are taught conversational phrases off the bat like greetings, eating in a restaurant, catching the bus and so on. I think this is the wrong way. I think teaching basic words is the best way to teach a real beginner and doing so in a systematic way, say teaching 500 words in a book and having exercises in the book for the student to practise writing the words over and over again. I don't think the adult learner should jump into sentences at this stage. I think that's why many adults feel confused and think learning a foreign language is hard. They are absolute beginners but in the first chapter, they encounter a paragraph in Korean with no English translation and just a vocab list with the English translation beside them. It is like expecting a five year old child to learn their native language by throwing a book at them with a paragraph in the native language. 

Of course adults know another language so things can be explained in that native language but still I think that the step by step method beginning with basics is the best way to learn. Greetings are easy so I don't think they need to be stressed so much. They can be learned any time. Language learners want to know the word for cup, tea, jump, and so on. And it's much easier to learn them first making learning stress-free. Then after the basic vocab is learned, moving onto learning how to decipher sentences. Because you already have learned many basic vocab words, learning the grammar of sentences is less stressful. You aren't trying to learn the GRAMMAR and the VOCABULARY of the sentences at the same time. You can just concentrate on the grammar. Why the words whose meaning you know are put together the way they are. 

When you are trying to understand the MEANING of the words in a sentence and also trying to understand the underlying grammar of a sentence, it becomes too much for the poor old brain. Your brain finds it hard to cope. It's overloaded and learning becomes unpleasant. 

And you can't go through life WITHOUT knowing these basic words. But language teachers assume you are going to just learn these words through osmosis, without making a conscious effort to learn these basic words. 

So I think the conversational approach is wrong for most learners. And these books and courses concentrate on the conversational approach for beginners. 

But the grammar behind conversations is quite complex. The grammar behind simple prose in children's books is rather simple in contrast. So you will be learning basic grammar if you learn the way children are taught. In the other way, you are introduced to complex grammar off the bat. 

Of course the basic stage doesn't have to last very long. You might spent one-fifth/one-tenth/one-twentieth of the time that a child does in this stage. But it can't be skipped, not if learning is to be done in a systematic, orderly and as pain-free way as possible. 

Therefore, my theory of how foreign languages are taught to adults being less effective than they could be taught is based on my experiences and my own observations. 

And vocabulary learning doesn't really require a lot of teaching input in the native language. You see a picture and you choose the correct Korean word for example. No need to read paragraphs of explanations in English to know what to do.

So I think the focus should be on learning basic vocab in the first stage of language learning.   And the basic vocab should be the same sort of words that a child learns, not the vocab found in adult language learning books.

Then basic grammar should be taught. Here copious explanations in English are OK. Because the student has all the useful basic vocabulary they need under their belt, they can just focus on the grammar. They are not learning grammar AND vocab at the same time, something which can be very stressful to the learner. 

Then after that, some reading. By then, the vocab that the learner learned in the beginning stage will help. The learner is concentrating on reading and making sense of the grammar of the sentences, not learning vocab AND making sense of the grammar at the same time. 

Of course there will be words the learner doesn't understand, but they will be a lot fewer than if the learner had not learned any basic vocab. 

Then the learner can learn harder vocab and then harder grammar and then attempt to read harder material. 

So this is how learning should go. 

Unfortunately, the books out there are teaching all sorts of high level vocab and high level grammar to a BEGINNER. They call it a beginner's book but the beginner is expected to know how to say "When do you want to get married by, Carol-ssi?" when they don't even know the word for tiger, table, kitchen. 

I don't think children know how to say, "There was only milk in the refrigerator" before they learn the words for spoon, chair, grape etc. 

So I think that the learner should know that they need to take the initiative to learn these basic words themselves because the adult language books aren't going to teach them these words. And it doesn't take long to learn 600 basic Korean words - maybe three days if you study intensively. And this bank of basic words will really be useful to them. They will come across them in the future all the time. Then after these words are mastered, the learner can move onto more sophisticated words like trading company, exchange bank and so on. 

So learn vocab and just concentrate on vocab when learning. Then learn grammar and concentrate on grammar when learning. Then read and just concentrate on reading when reading.

Conversation then can be taught through the immersion method or by listening to tapes. It can also be learned by reading if the reading contains dialog. Conversation can also be taught by showing movies. 

So once again, I find the method they teach adults a foreign language quite counterproductive and far different to the method instructors in general use when teaching a child a foreign language/native language. 

I think the method they use to teach young children is the best way, with a few modifications of course. They can make the material less childish in theme but still keep the simple format and the easy exercises and the repetitious nature of the teaching. 

I am finding the method I am using now of reading fairytales and manwha for children much better than jumping into essential phrases for business. Remember, I am still trying to master basic grammar. 

Once the basics are mastered then more sophisticated words and more difficult grammar can be taught. 


Posted by honeybearsmom at 7:11 AM EDT
Updated: Tuesday, 20 September 2011 8:24 AM EDT
Repetition is the key

If you like making learning a foreign language as effortless as possible then I think repetition is the best way to go about making it effortless. What I mean is if you don't want to spend the effort memorizing the meaning of a word the first time you encounter it, then try and make it so that you will come across the word in the near future by for example reading a lot. Once you see the word and its meaning several times it sticks in your head without your really trying to make it stick. So this is what I mean by repetition.

Also repetition works for other reasons as well. If you have learned a language well and can speak it fluently as well as write in it fluently, if you never have a chance to use the language in your life, chances are that in ten years' time you will have  forgotten most of the language.

That is probably how I forgot Korean completely. I learned it and could speak it as a child but at age four I started learning another language and never used Korean again. 

I must have built quite a vocabulary by the time I was four though. But I have forgotten 99.99% of it. 

So repetition is important not just for learning a language but to retain it as well. 

So the trick is to KEEP exposing yourself to the language. Make opportunities to read it a lot. Watch many movies and dramas in that language. Keeping the TV in that language on? I do that but I don't know whether that helps me. Speaking that language helps too even though you might have to make opportunities to do so. 

Repetition is so important. That's why overlearning helps sometimes. I have studied the Grammar in Use book about three times now (or is it four?). Because of that, many vocab words have stuck in my head. 

You might not learn a word the first two times you come across it. Then you come across it a third time, then a fourth, then a fifth .. by the sixth time you probably will have learned the word. That's why reading stories is useful. Authors often repeat words in stories. So you will encounter many words over and over again. And then you will learn the word and that's even without trying! 

So I think in my case I learn well by reading. Reading with translations though. That's how I learned English. If I read 50% of Anderson, Perrault and 100% of Aesop I would have read a lot of material. I would know all the words for castle, king, queen, prince, princess, they lived happily ever after,  gold, witch, marriage and so on. Not necessarily for saying them but definitely for recognizing the word when I come across them again. I would not have to look at the English translation for the meaning. 

So repetition is very helpful for learning and can make learning less of a chore. 


Posted by honeybearsmom at 6:46 AM EDT

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